Vince Samios

Comment from Allison Reynolds
Time September 28, 2009 at 5:42 pm

Weeeelllll having actually done NLP training under a proper practitioner I have some opinion about this.

Firstly, like in anything these days, the snake oil salesmen slither out at the mere hint of being able to make money. Human nature and greed attracts those parasites and they tend to blacken any industry they get a toe-hold in (can you spell internet marketing?). If someone is saying that NLP is all about written sales copy then I would would be avoiding like the plague.

The techniques and information I was trained in was all about creating rapport with another human being, finding out what they wanted, and then having them visualise how to get there. Pretty much pocket counseling (which is what a lot of NLP practitioners set up a shingle as…life coaches, success coaches , goal setters).

Mostly NLP is common sense
* People work better with people they like
* people achieve what they can imagine
* people are more like to take steps forward with their hand held

NLP has various techniques that help that happen and there should be no secret about them. Suggestibility is a key part of those techniques and so telling the person what is happening actually helps them “get it”.

I am a realist and I kept my mind way open during the training. There were some things that were cool, some not so cool (like the freaky new age people that like to attend these kind of things), but I can truly say it was practical training that has benefits … ask me about cheese and onion crisps one day

Comment from Vince Samios
Time September 28, 2009 at 6:42 pm

Oh sure, there are some credible things referred to in NLP training, but those things are just psychology.

Anything original to NLP is bullshit.

Comment from steve wild
Time September 29, 2009 at 5:25 am

I quite agree having met more than a lifetimes worth of bullshitters, Buy a book of amazon on a daily basis and preach in meetings that they can make a difference with NLP or any fad!

All though like any industry there are some great people who have learned how to do it themselves and become great and respected teachers and admired in their industry!

However most of the idiots read lots of books and somehow they then think they are experts in NLP etc and can teach others, well as my mother used to say buying me the latest Man United home shirt does not make me Ronanldo!! You need to be out there making an impact
(my rant over and interesting post by the way)

Comment from Vince Samios
Time September 30, 2009 at 4:33 am

Steve, I don’t think anyone who does NLP is “great” and none should be respected. NLP as a whole is bullshit…

Also, not all people who preach NLP are bullshitters, 90% are just gullible…

Comment from MikeB
Time September 30, 2009 at 7:55 am

So if thats NLP, what does vince think of the law of attraction….

Comment from Rosemary Folker
Time October 2, 2009 at 8:51 am

Well, Vince - I’ve only met you once and I liked you but I am sort of surprised at the vitriol you’ve thrown at NLP. Have you never seen the likes of Tony Robbins in action? A master of NLP who can change people’s lives in a couple of hours, I’ve seen him dissolve traumatic issues that people have held on to for 40 years - like being sexually abused. I don’t think you really know what you’re talking about. Perhaps what you’d be happier with psychotherapy or psychoanalysis - spend 10 years going over the details of your childhood - now that’s a money spinner! And talk about bs - he based whole theories on one or two studies. Hardly scientific and the world bought it!

Comment from Vince Samios
Time October 2, 2009 at 12:44 pm

Hi Rosemary,

I’ve seen Derren Brown predict lotto numbers live on TV - that doesn’t mean its not bullshit. “NLP” borrows a lot of concepts directly from traditional Psychology, the hyped methods specific to NLP are the methods I have issues with.

NLP is a very attractive hype - wouldn’t it be fantastic if it worked? We want so badly for it to be true that we almost convince ourselves it is. Ref: Religion, its the same deal. Willful ignorance.

I’ve personally tested NLP’s claims, like the wording in sales copy - if it worked there would be a measurable increase in conversions, rather than the measurable decrease. So do I know what I’m talking about? I can’t claim to know much about anything, but I’ve seen the data… which is more than 99% of NLP practitioners.

I take HUGE issue in the hype naming, and the hype claims. Especially when the hype naming is so blatantly incorrect in and of itself.

Cults - why do people join cults and end up thinking its a good idea to kill themselves en-mass? Hype! Willful Ignorance! Pattern?

But - if you’ve researched NLP fully and you wholeheartedly feel its right for you, then maybe its exactly the placebo you need?

Peace.

Comment from Ray
Time October 3, 2009 at 2:26 am

Clearly you do not know what you are talking about for a start. You’ve obviously had little or no experience of NLP training so your opinion of what NLP is and does is a tad off the mark. It’s hardly a scientific test shen you don’t understand what you are testing.

Further more NLP is simply a tool. Like any tool it it only as good as the craftsman in how’s hands it is. In this case you are obviously no craftsman, are you?

You quite clearly have a some talent when i comes to Internet marketing and therefore I’d suggest you stick to writing about that rather than airing I’ll informed opinions which are frankly moronic.

BTW congratulations on what sea like a great success at the system

Comment from Rosemary Folker
Time October 3, 2009 at 9:18 am

Vince, that’s just it - NLP does work and we’re not just talking placebo. When Tony starts working with people, it is clear that they are often unaware of what he doing or using and, as for wanting it to work, they have often given up on anything working. They’ve been carrying emotional stuff around with them for years! So they aren’t wanting it so badly to be true.

The great thing about NLP is that that you don’t have to believe in it, you don’t have to know about how it works - it just needs a damn good practitioner to take you through the process. Now perhaps there’s the rub - whether the practitioner is good. I have no doubt that there are those who jump on the bandwagon with dollar signs in their eyes. You’ll get those in any profession, trade or business. After all, there’s enough of them in SEO.

As regards what you say about testing NLPs claims, you can’t measure it in the same way as you would wording in sales copy. There is no split test for NLP interactions. You cannot perform a randomised controlled double blind trial which is, in effect, what split testing is. Each NLP interaction is unique and not measurable against a “control”. Do you have access the studies and stats? I have my doubts as to whether any worthwhile studies have been done on NLP, as studies require money. What matters is whether NLP works for individuals and, in the right hands, it certainly seems to.

You seem to argue in a very generalised way - take cults for example. To imply that people who join cults are liable to extinguish themselves, is a huge generalisation. There are loads of cults in this world - from deluded groups who follow some charismatic leader to people who dress up and go to Rocky horror films or the Sound of Music over and over again, or trekkies.

I don’t know whether you place more faith in traditional psychology - you sort of imply you do. If so, you’d be mistaken to do so. Having studied this area, I know just how flimsy many studies are - the most famous being Freuds.

Anyway, talking to you could become addictive and I’ve got work to do.

Peace back.

PS It is self evident that any thought patterns you develop are programmed into your brain and ANYTHING to do with your brain or nervous system IS your neurons.

Comment from bob
Time October 8, 2009 at 11:56 pm

Good post! Really, NLP is nothing more than some repackaged psychology cloaked in buzzwords (I mean that of it which makes any sense). Seems like a way for non-psychologists to repurpose something so it doesn’t require formal education or a license to practice AND that allows them to make more money on a grand consumer scale. I’m not saying there is zero value in any of it, but it’s certainly far from new. Sad that the people who most gravitate to it, really are the ones who are probably better off by not gravitating to it.

Comment from Vince Samios
Time October 13, 2009 at 2:11 pm

It seems like 99% of people defend NLP with “it does some good” - which is fair enough - something which is sold as helping, might just help simply because its said to help…

but…

If I teach kids how to cross the road well 90% of the time, but the other 10% I teach them to jump in front of trains, does that means there is benefit to my lessons?

Comment from Ian Brodie
Time October 17, 2009 at 3:44 pm

Rosemary,

By your own admission (”have my doubts as to whether any worthwhile studies have been done on NLP, as studies require money”) you haven’t researched the evidence on whether NLP works.

And that’s the problem. NLP practitioners and NLP “gurus” studiously avoid testing their claims. If NLP was a pharmaceutical it wouldn’t be allowed on the market because there just wouldn’t be enough evidence to justify it. “It certainly seems to work” just isn’t good enough for something people across the globe spend millions upon millions on - and potentially miss out other therapies to do so.

Other psychology schools (as you point out) are just as bad. But that doesn’t mean it’s OK for NLP not to test its claims.

Saying “Each NLP interaction is unique and not measurable against a “control”” is simply wrong-headed. The exact same thing applies to pharmaceuticals - the interactions between a drug and the condition and physiology of the patient mean that every situation is unique. That’s why they do large scale trials - to control for all the variables. It costs money - a lot of money. But we have the common sense to demand that drugs are tested before we let them loose on the public. Not so with NLP or other psychological methods.

As it happens, I put the effort into looking up the research a while back. Not a lot has been done, but it doesn’t do NLP many favours.

Of course, you can’t test NLP as a whole - it’s so nebulous. It’s co-opted lots of basic psychology that long predates NLP and much of which works. It’s added in a lot of gobbledegook about representational systems and the structure of the brain that’s long since been discredited.

The biggest test historically of NLP was the US Army’s research into enhancing human performance. The researchers were impressed with the modelling approach used to develop NLP - but “found little if any evidence to support NLP’s assumptions or to indicate that it is effective as a strategy for social influence”.

To be fair, very few psychological schools do much testing either. But they haven’t created huge multi-million empires which they aggressively promote as the answer to all ills.

Has any approach been tested? Pretty much the only one is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. You’ll actually find it has quite a few things in common with NLP. but the people who work in the field test out what they do, and they do what has been proven to work. I like that.

Ian

Comment from Dan
Time December 12, 2009 at 6:59 pm

There are a multitude of well researched well founded interventions that have been found to be reliably efficacious. From educational interventions to ways of coping, there are things you can do to improve performance or stay normal under tough situations.

Neurolinguistic programing was always considered pseudoscience because its concepts were faulty, exaggerated, or otherwise fabricated.

Then NLP was tested using reliable testing methods, and it failed:

Neurolinguistic programing has also been identified in research as one of a top ten most discredited interventions (Norcross et al 2006,2008)

Its now used as an archetypal pseudoscience by neuroscientists who want their students to avoid adding pseudoscience to their term papers. So neurolinguistic programing is useful after all: As an example of modern pseudoscience.

Dan

Comment from Richard Grinder Robbins
Time December 24, 2009 at 9:11 am

NLP is roughly 20% good ideas and 80% idiotic crap. You are totally correct about regurgitation. There is precious little original thinking in NLP. Mostly it is brainless repeating patronizing mantras and suspending disbelief in the face of absurd untested claims. You are also correct that it is basically a pyramid scheme. NLP has been a great moneymaker for charlatans who disguise their lack of education in evasive garbage like they are using ambiguous language with the Milton Model. So ambiguous language which cannot be tested is piled onto this great stinking heap of linguistic dung they insist on calling a technology. The people teaching this technology tend to either be morons or scammers or clueless dilettantes with no degrees from any respectable institution. Their most typical idea of a degree is the toilet paper you receive from a mail order university. The two persons who founded this ridiculous excuse for a disciple like to be know as co-creators. Like two lesser gods of Sodom and Gomorrah.
More like Beelzebub A and Beelzebub B, the lords of the flies.

Comment from MANIPULATOR
Time April 30, 2010 at 8:53 am

Hello all. I have a hard time with NLP and I have TRIED my best to keep my mind open. Now it’s closed… NLP is for those who want to follow others, and cannot lead their own life, they can not think of things outside of what others are telling them is cool. They are manipulated.

The best point that Vince has made, that rates NLP up into the Fullest Extend of Bullshit Law, is that it uses bullshit words to describe what they are describing. Look at this…

Neuro = brain processing information - information from sub consciousness, feeling, desires, fears.

Linguistic = Communicating that information through words

Programming = means to manipulate something, change it

By name NLP means I can change my sub conscious, my feelings, and my fears, by speaking different words.
Ok so here is the problem. This is the same as suppressing my feeling, fears, desires. I am not expressing them, so I must just be pushing them down further. So I am basically creating neurosis in myself by just ignoring my real feelings and desires etc etc.

So then next – what in the hell does nuero linguistic programming (i.e. Self Inflected Neurosis, SIN? Haha) have to do with mirroring another person’s non-verbal behavior. It means that you are so busy looking for my movements that you are not really listening to what I am saying.

So you suck as a coach if you can’t even truly hear what I am saying I need help with. You’re trying to make me feel that you are connected to me…but you are not because you are not understanding me, because your too busy looking at my tits…or my eyes…or whatever.

And calling Vince out on his ability to do web marketing is bullshit also. He is expressing an opinion, he has good points, it’s confusing. Even the damn creators are confused on what it is. I read their first book, it’s a little confusing….refers to basic psychology, then everything after that was spread out over many people’s opinions. Like a bunch of dogs jumping on a pile of catfish…whatever that means.

Anyone who believes NLP is helping them, needs to keep an open mind to the possibility that this is just a manipulation tactic that people are over using, over claiming, and being over confident in.
I am a Licensed Psychologist, I would never manipulate someone to ignore their feelings, and if you look at NLP closer than you are, you will see that is what it does.

NLP IS 125% BULLSHIT, the 25% is for all you claiming it’s real.

Pingback from Does NLP Work? Dr Manipulator comments…
Time April 30, 2010 at 1:57 pm

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Comment from Alan
Time July 24, 2010 at 10:23 pm

NLP is pseudoscience

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdwl8h_characteristics-of-pseudoscience_tech

http://knol.google.com/k/neurolinguistic-programming#

The Norcross studies are cool. Lots of researchers say neurolinguistic programming has been discredited.

I am certified in NLP. What a waste of money. The videos above are spot on!

Alan

Comment from cctv installation
Time March 20, 2011 at 2:51 pm

NLP is mostly rubbish from my experience, which seems to be virtually a religion for some people.

Comment from Thomas
Time May 9, 2011 at 11:08 pm

Yes, I am NLP prac. NLP is 20% useful only, the rest one, completely bullshit.

What is the use of adjustment of submodality and representation system? after adjust also doesn improve anything, if it does also temporary effect. what a nonsense and wasting money course!

Comment from Kelvin
Time October 14, 2011 at 4:55 am

What a shame that NLP doesn’t work.

I grabbed some bits of it and transformed myself from very despondent and un-motivated to full on action man and much more genuine, positive person.

I can feel it in my totally relaxed attitude and the increasing appreciation I get from others.

But if you say it does not work, I had better go back to the depressed me.

Pity, I was enjoying success.

Comment from Vince Samios
Time October 17, 2011 at 5:42 am

Kelvin the things that worked for you are most likely borrowed from other systems and methodologies, so while your success is very real, It’s probably got very little to do with “NLP” or, more specifically, the techniques unique to “NLP” - You probably just needed something, anything, to be your trigger. By the time you decided to speak to an NLP practitioner, you had already made the decision to change. At that point all you needed was some kind of support to get you to your result.

So… well done… but I wouldn’t thank NLP specifically if I were you.

Comment from Steve
Time December 13, 2011 at 11:28 am

Vince - if it makes people feel better and more in control of what they think and feel then why the big issue is not NLP linked into CBT in some way. You seem very against people feeling better with themselves. Could this be that you have missed the NLP gravy boat. If people can find there own trigger and then have positive action to realise via NLP then what the issue, life is about being a better person, and if NLP works or a support network great. You do seem a little angry around NLP hype. (I am not an NLP person but whatever makes someone a better person has to be good, and you seem to push back on this) Sorry buy thats my view after 15 years of working with people

Comment from Vince Samios
Time December 26, 2011 at 4:02 am

Steve I see your point regarding positive impacts of NLP on some people, my issues is this is either entirely placebo, or based on psychology which isn’t unique to NLP. The things unique to NLP are bullshit.

I also don’t think a two week training course would give someone the knowledge to deal with very fragile people and with sensitive issues.

There is a reason we require brain surgeons to train for decades, and likewise there is a reason we require psychologists to train for years.

Comment from Rafal
Time December 29, 2011 at 10:28 pm

NLP is a scam - the only think that works is …making money on training people how it works. that’s why there’s so many so called ‘coaches’.
..and what do they teach? if you hurt someone..don’t worry it only means you’re effective